Ninja Casino - 플레이어의 자기 배제 요청이 간과되었습니다.

Hello i hope you are doing well! Im writing this message regarding responsible gambling and my self-exclusion and im requesting to get a refund of my deposits made to ninja casino minus withdrawals for the period i should have been self-excluded for 1 year. i set 1 year self-exclusion 2 TIMES on ninja casino but both times i was able to remove my self-exclusion by just going to the chat and ask for it and i wasn't even excluded for 1 month from that 1 year that i should have been which led me to lose all my money and im only living on benefits and now i don't have anything left. This is causing me a lot of stress and ninja casino have failed to keep me safe from depositing when i have self-excluded for gambling addiction reasons and i tried to stop and i did set up self-exclusion for 1 year which should close my account permanently for atleast for that 1 year with no chance of getting it open like in every other casino and like it says in the licence. Please help me to get my deposits back which i did minus withdrawals for the time that i should have been self-excluded for 1 year. Ninja Casino has no safety measures against players like me even when i self-excluded for 1 year they just open you're account back if you ask them so what is even the point on their self-exclusion tool and what is the point that you can choose a time period when you can just open you're account back at any time.

They are coming back to me saying that self-exclusion can be removed with a 48hours cool-off period even before the self-exclusion has finished which is totally wrong, that cool-off period is supposed to come effect if you want to open you're account back AFTER you're self-exclusion period has finished and they are refusing to refund me my deposits minus withdrawals on this time period. They are offering non existent self-exclusion tools and are totally unresponsible with responsible gambling.

Dear Sami,

Thank you very much for submitting your complaint. I’m sorry to hear about your problem.

I have checked terms and conditions, and this is what I found https://www.ninjacasino.com/terms:

„ Player protection mechanism

2.1. The player may set limits on the losses that he can incur during a period of time. Players also have the right to self-exclude from play for a definite or indefinite period of time. The Operator will not accept a wager from a player contrary to a limit or exclusion set by the player. The Operator will not accept a wager from the player who has voluntarily entered himself to the restricted gambler’s list either via via e-Tax/e-Customs portal or by submitting the relevant information at the service bureau of Estonian Tax and Customs Board. Any relaxing of previously requested limits will become applicable after a period of 48 hours."

Before we’ll contact the casino and ask for their standpoint, could you please forward emails or screenshots showing that you have sent requests for a self-exclusion? My email address is petronela.k@casino.guru. Did you specify in those requests for how long you wish your account to be closed and why?

I hope we will be able to help you to resolve this issue as soon as possible. Thank you in advance for your reply.

Best regards,

Petronela

Hello! Firstly i think you have understood wrong. I was self-excluded this year under a month ago for 1-year period of time not that i tried 1-year ago. I used the self-exclusion tool on their website which is ofcourse part of responsible gambling and i set up 1-year self-exclusion now 2 times in this year alone which was the maximum amount of time i could set it up for and the latest active 1-year self-exclusion was not even 1 month ago when i self-excluded. I set this limit up, because of my gambling problems but when i got the urges to gamble again i went to their live chat to ask if this self-exclusion could be removed and they removed it easily only with 48hour cooldown period which should never happen to protect people like me. No other casino even with the same license they have which is the estonian gambling license would remove self-exclusion until the self-excluded time period is over for any reason and thats how it should work.

It even says in the terms you have copied here that:

• Players also have the right to self-exclude from play for a definite or indefinite period of time. The Operator will not accept a wager from a player contrary to a limit or exclusion set by the player.

so basically i self-exclued on their site for definite 1-year period of time using their self-exclusion time which was the maximum amount to choose from now 2 times in this year. The second time was no more than 1 month ago, because i wanted to stop but they removed the self-exclusion of 1-year just by me asking in their chat which is serious deficiency in their responsible gambling. I was not self-excluded even 1 month from that 1-year i mean this has to be illegal what is even the point on their self-exclusion tool when you can just remove the self-exclusion whenever you want.

I dont have any screenshots of this but i will ask ninja casino for the proof of my self-exclusion and i will also give you full permission to get any details you want from them if needed. My self-exclusion both times was also set up for 1-year minimum time.

Thank you for you're time, i really hope you can help me with this because they don't care at all and are not willing to cooperate.

I also want to add here some rules i have found from the website of their licence regulatory body The Estonian Tax and Customs Board regarding responsible gambling on top of what you have posted here from ninja casino's terms which are clear. I also have screenshot proofs of all these rules.

Rules regarding responsible gambling from ninja casino site:

• Players also have the right to self-exclude from play for a definite or indefinite period of time. The Operator will not accept a wager from a player contrary to a limit or exclusion set by the player.

Rules i have found from their regulator Estonian Tax and Customs Board:

• A person who wishes to protect oneself for the negative consequences that may arise from gambling, may set restrictions on gambling for oneself.
• It is possible to set restrictions on games of chance (land-based and internet casino games), totos (sports betting) and classical lotteries. No restrictions can be set on instant lotteries (lottery tickets that are scraped).
• Setting restrictions on gambling is optional and once the restriction has been set, you cannot change it or declare the restriction invalid.
• If a person has a valid gambling prohibition, then the gambling operators will not let the person go gambling.

Requirements from their licence regarding responsible gambling:

• II Conditions for organisation of remote gambling

• 1. Restrictions on participation in remote gambling:
• 1.1. a person under 21 years of age shall not play a game of chance organised as remote gambling or a game of skill organised as remote gambling;
• 1.2. persons under 18 years of age shall not play a toto;
• 1.3. persons under 16 years of age shall not play a lottery.
• 2. Hardware and software, used for organisation of remote gambling, shall ensure that the average amount distributed to players as a result of a game shall exceed 80 percent of the total amount of all bets.
• 3. Upon organisation of a game of chance as remote gambling the operator shall establish a system of measures which ensures that a person entered in the list of restrictions on playing games of chance shall not be allowed to play.

• 6. While organising gambling as remote gambling, the gaming operator shall ensure:
• 1) measures to avoid providing any gambling opportunities to persons who are younger than the age set out in clause 1 (restrictions on participation in remote gambling);
• 2) the identification of every player;
• 3) the registration of every player’s forename and surname, personal identification code or date of birth in the absence of a personal identification code, and the time and date of entering and exiting the gaming environment;
• 4) the keeping of record of the bets made by every player, payments transferred to the account of the gambling operator for the making of bets, refunds made and prizes distributed to players;
• ) the acceptance of bets and payments transferred to the account of the gambling operator for the making of bets only from the settlement account of the same player or from a player in the gaming location of the same gambling operator;
• 6) the making of distributions only to the same settlement account, from which the player has transferred a payment for the making of bets in gambling;
• 7) an unrestricted access for supervisory officials to the gaming equipment used for the organisation of remote gambling.
• 8) measures for hindering the persons entered in the list of restrictions on playing games of chance to play games of chance (Subsection 39 (6) of the Gambling Act).

That i have found from their licence what they require from them and clearly they don't have that if they just remove my self-exclusion that i set up for 1-year only by going in the chat and asking for it. I chose 1-year self-exclusion for a reason.

I have now send you the proof of my self-exclusions that i got from ninja casino to you're e-mail that you requested.

1. self-exclusion: starting date 2020-07-24 and expiry date 2021-07-25. account reopened 2020-09-12 

2. self-exclusion: starting date 2020-09-30 and expiry date 2021-03-31. account reopened 2020-10-04

Thank you very much, Sami, for forwarding the relevant screenshot. I do apologize for a misunderstanding; I have corrected the "Summary" of this complaint. Could you please forward your cashier history too? Looking forward to hearing from you.

i have send you my complete transaction history now with all my deposits and withdrawal shown from ninja casino.

also calculating the deposits/withdrawals from the spreadsheet i sent you with the information of my transactions, the correct amount i should be refunded is 549e after i should have had my self-exclusion in place for that 1 year at the first time.

Thank you very much, Sami, for providing all the necessary information. I will now transfer your complaint to my colleague Matej who will be at your assistance. I wish you best of luck and hope to see your problem being resolved to your satisfaction in the near future.

Ok, thank you Petronela! I wish you all the best too.

Hello Sami.

I have one very important question. When you asked for self-exclusion did you mention that you have a gambling problem?

Because if a player mention that he wants to self-exclude because of gambling problem the casino should exclude such a player for indefinitely without possibility to revoke such a self-exclusion.*

Hovewer, classic self-exclusion where the reason is not a gambling problem is possible to revoke after cool-off period.

Hello! there was no option to choose any reasons, but it says if you want to take cooldown you can self-exclude for a period of time you choose and this should be irreversible and that how self-exfclusion should work. And i really dont understand even their licence says self-exclusions cannot be reversed and that is to protect problem gamblers and that how the self-exclusion tool should work if you choose a period of time. There is no point on offering a self-exclusion where you can choose a period of time if you are not even excluded for that time period. Also chanz casino has the same licence as ninja casino and they said self-exclusions cannot be reversed for any reason and that their licences require this as part of responsible gambling and they have the same estonian licence. I have never came across a casino yet other than ninja casino that removes self-exclusions that are set for a definite amount of time for any reason.

My point here is i have set a self-exclusion to protect myself for 1 year period of time which was removed and which is not allowed for any reason until the time has passed. It even says it in their own ninja casino site AND on their licence rules. Self exclusion and only closing you're account are two different things, self-exclusion is a part of responsible gambling and is ment to protect people from harms that can come from gambling and these people don't have any such tools in their site if you can just remove you're self-exclusuon whenever you want before the time is up.

I would like to ask the casino representatives to explain their position and why the self-exclusion can be lifted so easily.

We received this response from Ninja Casino:

At Ninja Casino we always aim to provide our players with a safe and enjoyable experience. Self-exclusions can be temporary when they are with a specific Casino operator. However, they are only in place irrevocably when done through the National self-exclusion list (HAMPI). Sami's case has been referred to The Estonian Tax and Customs Board and has been dealt with accordingly. Would appreciate it very much if in future we can be contacted directly regarding this case so we can make sure that if there are anymore issues they can be dealt with promptly.

Hello. This answer from ninja casino is absolute joke i self-excluded myself for 1-year time i chose 1 year period what is this answer? i have not heard anything from the estonian tax and customs board yet. Can you please explain me how can self-exclusion which is a responsible gambling tool that i set up for 1-year be temporary? and the licence it clearl says operators need to have these measures and i have shown proof off all kinds here that they have done wrong here. Even other casinos with the same licence the estonian licence they said that self-exclusion set for a definite time cannot be reversed.

Ninja Casino has no safety measures against players like me even when i self-excluded for 1 year they just open you're account back if you ask them so what is even the point on their self-exclusion tool and what is the point that you can choose a time period when you can just open you're account back at any time. i self-excluded myself for 1-year after i lost over 2000e in 1 week to ninjacasino and immediately self-excluded but they opened my account back and said they did not find any implications of excessive gambling and i lost over 2000e in 1 week... I have attached proofs against ninjacasino i don't understand how they can look at my situation when i lose over 2000e in 1 week then self-exclude myself for 1year and they just open my account back. Nina casino is not safe at all.

Also no check for identification or source of wealth was ever done and my deposits totalling almost 5000e and i have attached proof of my deposits/withdrawals on this message also and also proof of my self-exclusions that i set up.

Please casino guru do you need something from me or what is going on with this complaint now? I mean i don't understand ninja casino they have not answered these questions here. This has to be illegal since estonia is a eu country. Please let me know what you need from me now and is there anything i can do or take this further how to proceed here? Only answer i can see here is that they came back and said "Self-exclusions can be temporary when they are with a specific Casino operator".

Sami, based on answer from casino: you revoked your self-exclusion, you pass 48h cool-off period (and you still wanted revoke the self-exclusion) and after that you passed the responsible gamble test. Is this information correct?

i set up 1-year self-exclusion which you can see. I then got huge gambling urges so i went to their chat to ask can my self-exclusion of 1-year be removed which i said in the beginning. Then they said they will pass this to their security department to make an assesment. They then come back to me asking what is the reason i put the self-exclusion in place i said security reasons ofc i want to protect myself. Then they said my account would be opened after 48hours cooldown period.

Self-exclusions should not be irreversible for any reason i set up for 1year it should be minimum 1 year. I have put a lot of evidence from their own terms and from the licence they hold that responsible gambling tools should be available to keep people safe from the harms of gambling. They don't have this i set up 1year definite self-exclusion which can be removed and you can go read the articles abou this casino why they lost their swedish licence. They don't have any of that in place and they prey on the weak people to get their money. Go ask any casino that are actually responsible and playing with the rules no one will remove self-exclusions for any reason because it is there to protect people for not gambling anymore for the minimum amount of time.

I have all the proofs here ninja casino have nothing. They come with that weak statement after all of this is just a joke and they actually dare to tell me they take responsible gambling seriously....Also can you not see that i have lost over 2000e in 1 week and i then put 1 year self-exclusion in place and they have never did any checks or nothing i don't understand what their security department are doing if they can't even get any signals from that. And tell me how can i revoke my self-exclusion how is that even possible? i choose 1 year definite time and somehow i can just revoke it what is this casino i swear i will take them to court i have overwhelming evidence they have gone against every responsibe gambling law and anti-terrorism also for not doing any check of any sort even after all that money deposited which they already have lost one licence to.

Also their responsible gambling test i never even have done the test i just wanted to gamble they just gave me a link to somewhere to test if i have any problem gambling signs thats it.

i even went to chanz casino the same licence that they have and they said their licence requires them to have responsible gambling tools in place and self-exclusions set for a definite time can not be removed for any reasons. Also they said that it would not be a very good self-exclusion if you can just remove it any time and thats what im thinking.

I am very sorry, Sami, but we have a different opinion. The casino asked you about the reason why you want to revoke your self-exclusion, and if you would that time mentioned to them the gambling problem, then your account will remain closed. (and probably indefinitely)

Now tell me, just hypothetically after you deposited €2000 - if you would win, would you tell them, please keep the winnings because I have a gambling problem? I doubt about that. So I am very sorry, but our philosophy is simple, if the player contacts the casino, and tells to the casino that he has a gambling problem or failed some o casino check. - The casino should as soon as possible close player's account and never let him play again. But if we are talking about self-exclusion where the player doesn't have any gambling problem. Our opinion is that self-exclusion may be revoked after the cooling-off period.

I understand that you heard that in Sweden there is a different situation and each nation can make his own rules, but these rules do not apply to you. We believe in the common sense here.

Example: I visit the pub with a few of my friends and tell the bartender that I will be a driver today, and tell him that I can't drink alcohol today. But I will later tell the bartender that I changed my mind. I will explain to him that we will call a taxi and later asking him for an alcoholic beverage. He will bring me that drink 100%. And if I later become drunk and will drive my car and will cause an accident and then blame this bartender because he knew that I "should" to be a driver and he gave me an alcoholic beverage, and I have a paper from a doctor that I am alcohol addicted, would be it fair? I don't think so. In this case I made a decision to drink and I make a decision to not to tell the bartender about my problems with alcohol. So it is my responsibility and I can't blame anybody else.

We believe in free will and responsibility for our own actions. Yes, gambling problem is a severe issue, but there are some rules which every each of us needs to follow. The first rule is, to tell the truth to the casino; otherwise, they can't protect you. In this case, we believe that you made a mistake that you didn't tell the truth and you have no right for refund.

ok well still i have to disagree with you. Self-exclusions should never be lifted for any reasons if i put a timer for it for 1-year. I mean there is no point on self-exclusions otherwise and i have checked with other casinos no one will lift you're self-exclusions for any reason and this is also in MGA licence, UK gambling licence rules aswel on the estonian licence rules because of gambling addiction and its nature is that people will do anything to gamble if they are let to and if i choose 1year self-exclusions it should be 1 year no matter what. Also i am not asking back the 2000e deposited only the 500e AFTER i lost that 2000e and was self-excluded. I agree i lost fair and square at first, but i then had self-excluded myself for 1-year after i lost the 2000e and there was no option to put any reasons i just went to responsible gambling section and self-excluded for maximum time of 1-year but they easily just removed my self-exclusion. And to comment on you're analogy on drinking is not comparable here, i have asked for my account to be closed 1 year AND at the time when you choose to self-exclude there is no choice to put any reasons there but after when the gambling urges will come back you're desire to gamble is so strong that lying is the easiest thing to do. People will steal and commit frauds to get to gamble if they need to just like any other addiction and everyone with a litlebit of a brain will know this thats why there are these responsible gambling laws in place to decrease a lot of bad things that results from this. This casino has not followed money laundering or identification rules of any sort and that has been the reason before also for them to lose licences and also they don't understand the nature of gambling addiction and responsible gambling and definitely are not responsible when it comes to responsible gambling and have violated the rules of their licence and also there has to be some laws in the EU that requires these things to be in place since estonia is a europian country. My free will was to self-exclude myself for 1-year time but they did not honour this and i would have been protected by the casino if they would follow the responsible gambling rules and would actually take responsible gambling seriously. Yes there are rules that each of us needs to follow and in this case, ninja casino has not followed their rules or licence rules regarding responsible gambling these rules are very clear on self-exclusions which again i have provided proof already from their licence yet ninja casino has not provided anything no proof at all. I think you are confusing 2 different things here that are closing you're account and self-exclusion. Self-exclusions is diferent from only closing you're account it is a responsible gambling tool required for licenced casinos to have and it cannot be removed for any reason until the time period you have chosen is expired.

But thank you again for you're help and you're time, i have now contacted their licence regarding this and probably will go to the court with this.

Thank you and have a nice rest of the year!

Thanks, Sami, for your reply. Responsible Gambling is a very interesting topic these days.

I would like to explain more deeply our opinion.

Each coin has two sides.

In this case (UK, Sweden) they decided to put strict self-exclusion rules in place and less regulated markets (mostly Curacao casinos) they still use the old way, where self-exclusion can be revoked. (I think MGA is somewhere in the middle)

Our point here is that if the players know that the self-exclusion will be permanent and irreversible, they more likely choose not to self-exclude themselves, simply because they dislike the idea that it is an irreversible decision.

So now another example: If I self-exclude myself from a casino for a lifetime at my eighteens. And later when I would be much older, that casino will become great, one of the top on the market. All my friends will be playing there, but I will not be able to play there because I did a self-exclusion when I was young and stupid. Do you think it is correct?

I think the UK and Sweden went too far and the correct way how to do self-exclusion is something between.

Unfortunatelly, many countries have their own vision, and so many different versions create a mess in the interpretation of self-exclusion.

In the ideal world: Casinos should ask what a reason for self-exclusion was. The self-exclusion would be reversible, but only after a certain period (6m,12m) and the player need to pass the source of income check and responsible gambling test before revoking the self-exclusion. (At least this is my personal opinion) Unfortunatelly for that, we need to unite the market and create the only one rules for every casino.

I wish you luck with a case. I am truly not an expert on Estonian law. You can try this website: www.greentablelegal.com

Maybe they will be able to help you, and it is for free.

I wish you luck in the future.

Because of all written above, we decided to close the complaint as "rejected."