National Casino - 플레이어의 보너스 상금이 무효화되었습니다.

Dear jiajunlaw,

Thank you very much for submitting your complaint. I’m sorry to hear about the issue.

I carefully checked the Bonus Terms on the website, and this is what I found (here):

„1e. The maximum bet with an active bonus is 5 EUR / 5 USD / 50 NOK / 6.5 CAD / 6.5 AUD / 6.5 NZD / 20 PLN /125 CZK / 600 JPY / 30 BRL / 25 MYR. (Unless stated otherwise in special terms for the bonus). Purchasing any game features (including but not limited to respins) will add to your bet amount. If the player exceeds the maximum bet when the bonus is active, National Casino reserves the right to confiscate the winnings."

We would like to see casinos implementing systems that would prevent players from placing higher than allowed bets, but, unfortunately, this is not a standard practice yet. You were not stopped or blocked when you decided to increase your bet, and, as a result, you breached the maximum bet rule.

If you are aware of placing higher bets than the allowed ones, sadly, there is not much we can do to support your case at this time. I would strongly recommend reading all the T&Cs carefully before you start playing to avoid any misunderstandings in the future. Casinos try to design their bonuses to be as attractive as possible, but the rules must always be followed.

Could you please advise if you have bought any bonus features while completing bonus wagering?

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Best regards,

Petronela

Hi Petronela,

Thank you for your swift response.

I understood max bet rules very well and indeed casinos should implement such system, I been to many of them which has it and that was definitely the right practise. Max bet rule is to protect Casino gesture of giving bonus, but not to use it to decline payment due to negligence of players.

I am very cautious and will always clarify with support, if I ever knew I did something accidentally breach the T&C, I usually immediately report myself to the support.

I would like to have your e-mail and send you the game log, I spent hours wagering and there is no way I would buy the feature games at this last few hundred wagering.. There is a progress bar of wagering in national casino hence I knew I was this close to the end of wagering, also I am aware of max bet rules, thus if i made a mistake of buying feature , that I could understand.

but 7 games of intention, that is not what i would have done, certainly not at the very end of my wagering. Based on my finding above, I am not convinced the game log is reliable and these games are totally outliers of my consistent MYR10 bet for above 1500 rounds.

The buying feature games only happened after I done wagering. I would love to share you a full game log but it is above 5mb. Also for 0 balance issue i forgot to attached the image, and i am attaching it now.

I been to their sister casino Katsubet before, and I was rank top 10 in leaderboard, as soon as tournament is over, they told me I am disqualified because I used bonus to play the game which that bonus fund is seperated from real fund, and I did not do that. If i was on the board all the time until end of tournaments and get disqualified. Are these tournaments actually real or everyone get disqualified one way or other? I am not sure. But I simply see a pattern of certain practise in the casinos managed by the same company.

Nevertheless, the miscalculation of the wagering requirement has demonstrated a character reference or a system failure, since the beginning I was already unfairly treated, and i stand firmly that I was accused for breaching the max bet rules. I will not accept or agreed to any backend system report/ casino official statement towards this incident except the truth where Casino and I were both recognized at the time of withdrawal.

For such decision made only 5 days after the events, coupled with the anomalies in the log, I have sufficient reasons to believe that very likely, that the record is inaccurate and in favour to Casino.

Hi Petronala,

First of all if you check the total bet by these games, the bonus should already be deactivated by the end of second game. However, it was activated all the 7 games. This has violated the bonus T&C wagering x40times by the casino.

According to the game log, these games are under active bonus. However, according to the data, 5 of 7 should not be still under influence of the active bonus. Either it is a system eror, or human error to include all of them under the active bonus to make a strong case of declined payout.

My standpoint is, I did not perform these games, and game log is inaccurate. Let us consider this is a genuine system entries, It fails to calculate simple SUM of total bet required for wagering, and it certainly has screwed up a few other entries i have pointed out, as well as these game record? Hypothetically, if it wasn't system fault, then my record is modified by someone, and the purpose is obvious.

We could agree that it would not be fair to declined payout using such records when it has proven unreliable. The truth for the cause i will leave it to Casinoguru to find out.

My consistent betting behaviour since the begining, would have demonstrated my persistence for playing by the rules. I would not break the rules at the last minute, that would be a silly move.

The self downloadable version of the game log only had a few available latest entries. Thus to obtain a thorough copy I have requested it from the support, the one i sent to you earlier was part of the portion as the original file is above 5mb.

I have already forwarded to your e-mail the original copy and the conversation loop for the request. Kindly let me know if you need any further information.

I understood, this is beyond your authority access to their internal system and it will never be possible. But I would request you do not reject the complain. This is a licensed casino declined my withdrawal, provided me a system generating log which proved I am being scammed on the wagering requirement. At this stage, I do not want to speculate if this is intentional or a simple glitch as my objective is to get what is lawfully mine, since they broke the T&C on wgering requirement, and the T&C I broke did not allow them to confiscate all my winnings.

It is interesting of their system to have the precision to make all the errors that serves best interest to the casino, their errors seems to be much developed than their system which fails to compute 470x40 = 18800 instead 20072. And this over requirements just precisely include only all the bets that violate 1e. The odd of these errors aligned this way in statistic to be found is just like a player get a one mil. jackpot with 1 dollar bet. It could happen, 99.9999% is not.

T&C is basically fundamental of my life, since they did not have a proper glossary which they should have had, the way of writing similars terms will be established in comparison to each others.

All the T&C related to winnings voided are below. You can see "ALL" and "ANY" were properly used in the events of winnings not to be paid, coincidentally, 1e is the only one without the use of these words, which established not ALL or ANY winnings, but winnings from the specifc bets that breach the term.

1m. If a player is suspected of abusing a free spin promotion or hasn’t wagered the amount of deposit made to receive these free spins at least 3 (three) times (excluding bets made on table games), National Casino management, at its sole discretion, reserves the right to cancel all free spin bonuses and any winnings acquired from them.

2f. Players can request a withdrawal of their deposit prior to meeting the wagering requirements. However, in this case, the bonus and any resulting winnings will be forfeited.

3a. The management of National Casino reserves the right to withhold or seize any bonuses or winnings gained as a result of fraudulent or otherwise unfair practices.

The National Casino management will review all player accounts and classify them at their discretion. In the event a Player is classified as a "bonus hunter" or "bonus abuser", all winnings and bonuses will be voided.

3b. At National Casino it's forbidden to abuse the bonus offers available (customer bonus ratio (deposits : bonuses) is more than 30%). If any such cases come to light, the casino reserves the right to seize any winnings gained as a result of abusing the bonus offers and disable the option of using any bonuses for that account in the future

3c. Minimal risk bets on any games (i.e. betting in proportions on different outcomes on the same hand to create "action" with minimal risk) do not qualify for completing the wagering requirement. Examples of minimal risk bets include betting on red and black simultaneously in Roulette, or betting on player and banker simultaneously in Baccarat. Players found to be adopting these practices risk having their bonus and any resulting winnings confiscated.

3e. The use of bonus funds purely to progress through the bonus stages is prohibited. For example, when a bonus or cash funds are used purely to progress through the bonus stages (e.g. collecting 9 out of 10 coins to reach that bonus feature) and then final stages (e.g. playing to collect the final coin to reach 10 out of 10 coins to reach the bonus feature) completed with cash bets when bonus funds have been forfeited, lost or converted to cash after fulfilling the wagering requirements. All the winnings gained during that play may be considered void.

Now look at 1e.

1e. The maximum bet with an active bonus is 5 EUR / 5 USD / 50 NOK / 6.5 CAD / 6.5 AUD / 6.5 NZD / 20 PLN /125 CZK / 600 JPY / 30 BRL / 25 MYR. (Unless stated otherwise in special terms for the bonus). Purchasing any game features (including but not limited to respins) will add to your bet amount. If the player exceeds the maximum bet when the bonus is active, National Casino reserves the right to confiscate the winnings.

1e. refer to only the winnings that generated from games above max bet when the bonus is active.

They are a licensed casino, they need to honour 1e. It could not be used to declined payments for ALL winnings, certainly not the bets after the active bonus.

Now the active bonus = wagering , when it is completed, no bets should be under the influence of this bonus T&C anymore. Being in the same withdrawal does not convert all winnings to active bonus generating

Even if i let them to consider this as ALL winnings. in the game log itself ,the mysterious 0 at the last balance of active bonus made complete sense now. The casino /system has acknowledged the violation of 1e. hence they confiscate everything, in 1e. the casino "reserves" the right and with the fact of 0 jumped back to actual balance of the first game after wagering, legally they are informed, and forgiven. This is the only reasonable explaination for the mysterious 0 in game log that could make sense of this.

They took it away once, and they returned to me, they have executed their right already when the balance becomes 0 , and they cannot balance correct me anymore.

43 times of deposit than 40times. Regardless system error or human error, as a player I am being treated unfairly and the Casino has violated the T&C. Am I the only one with the special treatment or a standard practise of Casino, I have no comment. Their game log is not reliable and should be dismissed in our dispute case.

I always knew I would not be able to prove about the max bet games above however I have proven :-

1.The system is having several anamolies and mistakes.Eg. a game that last for 2 days, malfunction of their "balance" for 2-3 days in my account, and the mysterious 0 in game log.

2.The wagering requirement is beyond the actual requirement, National Casino has breached the T&C.

3.I have consistent bet behaviours during active bonus, except the last 2 games in a game log with consideration of 1 and 2.

Legally, the case will be definitely a winning ,just that the value is not worth a legal battle and that is not my objective.

What do you recommend i should do, as long as it is fair and do justice, i will be happily communicating.

Perhaps the casino should be answering these suspicious activity would be a start of clarifying things up. And you are a neutral platform, even max bet rules is not what we can dive further, but all these points I have mentioned are hard evidence, we need answers to understand their real reputation, after all it aligns with your objective as casino guru 😀

Thank you very much, jiajunlaw, for your reply. I will now transfer your complaint to my colleague Matej (matej@casino.guru) who will be at your assistance. I wish you best of luck and hope to see your problem being resolved to your satisfaction in the near future.

Hello jiajunlaw.

I am sorry to hear about your troubles.

I have some additional questions.

Which exact bonus did you take?

You wrote that from 7 bets where was breached maxbet in five of them it should be OK because you already finish the wagering. What about those two remaining bets?

Hi , it is the 100% welcome bonus , with 40x wagering requirements.

MY deposits was 470, thus wagering requirement is 18800. According to the game log the first deposit bonus is only deactivated at 20072. The 5 last rounds are outside of 18800 but included in requirements. 2 of them were included in the requirement.

Having said that, I did not bet beyond my consitent betting, which is below MYR20. With all the suspicious entry in the log data, it is not biased to consider this log data is an edited version with human errors in it. I would expect a licensed casino is deploying stable system for the business activity. If a system fails to perform these basic task, then we should bring it to licensing authority to re-evaluate the standard of this casino and all aspect of it. They are not ready to operate.

Should it be not a system problem, then this game log is justified as unreliable source for justifying their action to confiscate my winnings. All these small mistakes in log make up a big story.

Please also find my final balance of the last game with active bonus. The balance becomes "0". Then it went back to my normal balance. To explain this 0, simply means the balance correction was done and forgiven, based on the log data. It could have stayed 0, instead I can keep playing. And they cannot balance corrected me again with the data is written. If they purposely misled me to play the games even when they already knew I would not be able to make it. Then, it also is considering a fraud case, for whatever reason they could have.

No matter how i look, I am being unfairly treated. This is not only breaching a T&C case, but fraudulent activity that legal action is still within consideration unless a proper proposition is given by the casino.

Isnt it?

Dear jiajunlaw.

It would be fair to let also the casino explain their point of view, so

before I write here some statement regarding your case, I would like to invite the casino representative into the case and let him explain to us what exactly happened and why.

That is very much reasonable, I would like to have their clarifications particularly the wagering requirements.

Does National casino not reply until today/?

No, but the time frame that they have is 7 + 7 days. Sometimes it takes a while.

i see. what would be next if they fail to respond? what other measure is recommended?

We would like to ask the National Casino to reply to this complaint. We are extending the timer by 7 days. If the casino fails to respond in the set time frame, we will close the complaint as ‘unresolved’.

Dear jiajunlaw.

If the casino will be unresponsive we help you to submit your complaint to the casino regulator. (Curaçao).

They really don't bother.

Now you can see what i am facing with. I cant believe licensed Casino is behaving such .

Do you think i can get my winnings?

Hello all,

We kindly ask you to provide us with more time to investigate the complaint, we will be back with the update within next 2 days.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Hello,

We reviewed the player's complaint and we find it fair and reasonable.

The player's wager was more than expected because the player the game from BONUS BUY category, which is not wagering with the active bonus.

https://nationalcasino.com/rules/bonus-terms

2b. Games from jackpot and bonus buy categories are excluded from bonus promotions. 

Thank you.

Matej, I found this is a waste of time. National Casino has again proved their honesty to me.After such a long delay of response and provided such official reponse, they did not even bother to cross check my game in activity log VS bonus buy category.

https://nationalcasino.com/rules/bonus-terms

2b. Games from jackpot and bonus buy categories are excluded from bonus promotions. The following games are excluded from the bonus promotion offer.

Just like 1e they claimed i violated, they now falsely accused me from breaking 2b, which again I didn't. Spending 2 days of investigation and come back to me with such injustice.

This finding was simply upsetting and insulting. Since beginning my point was exactly this casino was not fair, and now even in public eyes with your overlooking the incident, I was still being treated unfairly. When could this end? I could not deal with this emotional turmoil and suffering from the emotional distress of their unfairness has reach my maximum capacity.

I would like to understand Casinoguru's verdict in this dispute. I was being completely honest with all my inputs and I have nothing more to add on, though i still did not get any clarification for any of the anomalies, other than another accusation which can be cross checked easily.

I would not want to lose my winnings to this injustice, hence kindly advise your stand, and what is recommended for me in such vulnerable place .

Dear National Casino representative.

Could you please explain: The bonus buy features were not counted toward wagering requirements, am I right?

So what was then the reason for confiscating the winnings if these bets were not counted as wagering?

Could you please clarify this a bit more?

Ok, let's look into the Bonus General Terms:

The maximum bet with an active bonus is 5 EUR / 5 USD / 50 NOK / 6.5 CAD / 6.5 AUD / 6.5 NZD / 20 PLN /125 CZK / 600 JPY / 30 BRL / 25 MYR. (Unless stated otherwise in special terms for the bonus). Purchasing any game features (including but not limited to respins) will add to your bet amount. If the player exceeds the maximum bet when the bonus is active, National Casino reserves the right to confiscate the winnings.

And, accordingly to the player's bet history, the player did exceed the max bet with the active bonus, so we have confiscated the winnings.

According to the log history, please justifying why am i required to wagered more than x40? Those winnings outside of active bonus, why could you confiscate it?

Kindly explain the "0" balance on this record.

Why would this game last for 2 days while the before and after game was just few seconds away? Coincidentally, on the same page with those games violating max bet rules? I was certain i did not violate max bet rules during active bonus, with this date issue It would be reasonable to question if this part of the game log was repositioned from later game activity? I knew I didn't break the rule, coincidentally various "errors" on this part of the game logs, including total wagering, a game that last for 2 days, a "0" balance out of no where. All of them, are within the last page of active bonus.

Before that, it was behaving just like as it should be. And I, who had a perfect consistency betting pattern of MYR10, decided to sabotage my winnings over the last 7 games of active bonus by buying feature games.

This is illogical and stupid move, accusing me for such act is not acceptable. I dont need to be a mensa to feel humiliated. Except that I am , and I am humiliated not by your accusation, but the fact that this game log is full of errors, if your system is not working, you are not in the position to operate. If it is not your system, then this clearly is manipulated.

I am seeking for fairness, which the last part of the log for active bonus is injustice.

Dear National Casino representative.

Could you please send me the player's game log? In CSV (excel) format if possible. (matej@casino.guru)

Hello,

It's been sent to your email yesterday, thank you.

Dear jiajunlaw.

I checked both logs, and they are identical.

I did the same math on both of them with the same result.

Jiajunlaw started to make high bets when he wagered only 18322MYR, and he should wager 18800MYR.

Technically you made three higher bets before the wagering should finish. Why there was necessary to wager an additional 1272MYR is a mystery for me (maybe some currency conversion)

However, jiajunlaw breached the bonus terms. Therefore, the casino had the right to correct the balance.

Why it is 7430MYR - probably because you got also Free spins and CP from that wagering - so the casino cancelled all winnings which were made with money with no value (bonus money from the first deposit)

Mystery is why the wagering didn't end when jiajunlaw reach 18880MYR. Maybe the National Casino representative could explain that?

Hi,

Please also get the explanation why is the balance drops to 0 while the wagering is completed in the log?

389386076 - Why is this game activity last for 2 days?

There should not be any currency conversion, as I deposited in MYR 470, per their system, my account currency is MYR too. So everything was done in MYR.

I do not usually use my free spin until the wagering is done, and if there is any free spin used prior to my wagering is completed, we should find these spins with 0 bet within the bet records. Except It wasn't any 0 bets..?

First deposit free spin was only used later on on game Avalon on page 177 you could find.

Cash point would give me a surge of balance , other than my 470 MYR i first deposited, the rest was concluded with no another deposit of balance. Hence it wasnt CP.

It is a good idea to have the casino, also list down how, and why, they could confiscate my 7430 ? That is a reasonable request am I correct, Matej? As from my side I do not know how they decided to confiscate 7430. I asked them before, but they just said it is the correct amount without breaking down to me, it is another mystery. I would appreciate if they look into their MYR 7430. That would be a happy ending 😀

Or all the answers above is answered with a spreadsheet to calculate how they confiscate 7430 fair and square, it would not be a happy ending yet, but at least it is a start!

If the Casino could clarify what you have asked, along with the questions I had above, with legitimate and logical answers, only that, I would accept this is factually reliable, and only that, I wou rest my case, even, I did not perform those games but at least, evidentially on black and white, I would be guilty (except I am not).

National Casino Rep, I would like to point out one significance again, none of the game I played was within your bonus buy category hence your answer regarding to the wagering part, was dissapointing that you did not even look into my case before you dropped an official answer. I appreciate casinoguru for their help and time, and I would appreciate if you value the process as much as we do by working together to sort this out.

While I am actually a victim based on a game log of overwagering requirements, I had to defend myself over a gamelog that is puzzling as for now. I hope it is not discrimination or racism involved for your casino to respond with current timeframe and dedication. I am executing my consumer right to get clarification on a product that is different than your advertisement, 43x wagering instead of 40x.

I believe your casino is regulated and civilized, not trying to mislead and deceiving consumers with your advertisement cause that is not the right thing to do.

Hence, please resolve this asap with us. Professionally. Thanks.

Dear jiajunlaw,

I received an email from a casino representative regarding your case. 

In this email, they explain why the wagering didn't finish (it was because of your high bets - they do not trigger off the wagering)

The explanation about why they deduct 7430MYR:

Because the winnings were from the bonus and subsequent winnings, they deduct everything before you make another deposit.

(This make sense because all the subsequent winnings were with money with no value)

After we checked all the casino representative's information, we believe that the casino acted correctly.

Hi Matej,

I have official statement to support National Casino is feeding you false information and I would like your site to take it as a serious offense.

Please find my bonus wagering information on their site. You can tell i never failed a single wagering on their site. I do not care what excuses they are saying "now" but I have a screenshot of history "since the beginning".

The wagering is completed, successfully. Full stop.

Wagering displayed here = 18904, which i do not know how.

Wagering in log = 20072, Which i do not know how.

I can only say 18904 and 200072 are both given by National Casino.

Wagering successful and did not end, also told by National Casino.

Breaching the max bet rules, also told by national Casino.

A log with full of errors, also told by national casino.

Bonus buy category games were excluded for calculation (their initial statement),Which you can check the log i did not have any games from that category.

It has been a series of misleading information provided to casino guru with a long time frame, however, none of the answers could ever make any sense other than proving they are trying to scam your expertise, just to close this case.

I request national casino to take this a step further and contact the licensing company. After all these while, their justification were not consistent, any all of them have been not truth. Including I was breaching max bet rules.

After all these communications, Everyone could see what is going on, their character reference and intention are clear.

In a dispute case like this, it always should be simple and straightforward.

Consistent evidence based on truth. End case. Look at where we are now. Multiple evidences against their casino, using the data provided by them.

Matej, I need to know, how long do I have to justify myself despite they are providing fake information. Everyday this is untold to their licensing company there will be new victim.

I remained firmly on my stand since very beginning , the only difference was I found the world is a dark place with National Casino falsified evidence.

I am really traumatized by this experience, and found injustice and unfairness despite I brought this convo to public, it still was going nowhere.

Hello Jiajunlaw.

I understand your feelings, but please consider this fact:

You started to make high bets when you wagered only 18322MYR, and you should wager 18800MYR.

For us, the evidence that the casino sent us looks genuine, however, if you think that the casino somehow faked them (we already checked logs from you and the casino and they are identical) you can submit your complaint to the casino regulator. I will gladly help you with that. 

But please understand that from the evidence that we have we cant close the case in your favour, however, if you decide to submit this case to the casino regulator and the regulator decide in your favour we will close the case accordingly.

Hi matej. I understand your view and it makes sense to me from dispute point of view it can be closed as hard evidence wise , despite the suspicious events and inconsistent justification, which is hard to come to any conclusion with our current roles in this.

, it is for regulator to decide.

Please proceed with the plan and you can close this ticket.i have also found an organization that would be able to look at my case at no cost.

Since we can't make justice here. But I am sure justice will be found one way or other.

Based on all conversations above, we are rejecting the case.

Dear Jiajunlaw, if the regulator or some other organization finds some evidence that evidence what we received and based on which we reject the case was manipulated somehow, please let us know, and we will reopen the case.